Thanks very much. Hope your stiff arm improves and your tiredness gets better soon. You've just reminded me that I maybe should restart the post op exercises in case I have that problem with the rads as well.
Ah I thought I recognised the name lol. Glad you recovered well from the surgery sorry to hear about your seroma tho. My surgery went well also although I've been having trouble with my arm and stiffness but I guess its hard to get through any of this unscathed. Good luck for October the main thing that took me by surprise with rads is how tiring it can be.
Lots of love xxx
Thanks for replying - I'll track it down and check the label! Glad you found Aveeno worked well for you - I bought two containers so hopefully this should be enough. I think we were on the same thread for July surgery. I recovered fine from the WLE but still have a seroma though it hasn't caused me any problems.
Im currently using the blue palmolive, I think its sensitive which I used whilst having chemo. My hospital has not mentioned anything about soap for Rads tho. I've been using Aveeno for a while now and highly recommend that
Hope that helps good luck for October.
Lots of love xxx
Can I just drop into your Radiotherapy September group to ask what brands of soap are okay to use when going through radiotherapy? At my planning appointment the radiologist said to avoid ones that contain Sodium Lauryl Sulfate. I was in the supermarket today buying my Aveeno lotion, as recommended, and was checking out soaps but there are just so many and they all have long, long lists of ingredients in very small print.
I start my rads in early October so it is all getting very close.
I hope you are all coming through your rads without too many problems.
Still tired, but I think some of that is emotional. Off work for a week and signed off for next one too.
I had no fear of machine as Ninewells have new programme where they showed you a video of what to expect.
I did have a few moments of anxiety, if the machine broke or even if it were different radiographers.
Lots of care from staff and a wellbeing appointment next month.
Take care everyone.
Hi Everyone, hope all is going well with the rads. I had no.7 today, I was delayed a couple of days due to my thyroid going crazy. Seems chemo left me another gift! Radiotherapy is tiring, I honestly can’t stay awake past 9!
Its over so quick though so can’t complain.
A little tip for everyone when they draw on you a Simple wipe brings it off with no rubbing at all. I have lines on me everyday so helps not to try and scrub it off 😊
It’s Friday and time for a well earned glass of wine. Have a good one everyone xx
Aww bless you sounds like it’s been a little traumatic for you I’m sorry to hear that. I’ve found that my arm and chest really ache afterwards from holding position for so long. And yes the fatigue seems to set in straight away doesn’t it and I also put this down school runs and getting my 5 year old to settle at night but now from hearing that your feeling the same way Im putting it down to the rads. Hope everything went well for you today one more to tick off our lists 😊
sending love and hugs xx
I hope you are all doing well and coping with the rads
MissWhite89 - Blimey, bless you you have been on one heck of a long journey, I hope you are coping ok with the rads, 3 down 12 to go, keep strong won't be long until they're over
CC1981 - You have done so well managing to work throughout no wonder you are feeling tired, hopefully it won't take too long until you feel 'normal' again. A holiday might do you the world of good even if you do stay at home and put your feet up for a couple of days just to give your body the rest it needs.
As for me I wasn't aware I would find the radio machine freaky until I was laid under it on Monday and found myself becoming very anxious which took me by surprise as things like that don't usually bother me. I was told it was ok as the machine wouldn't come too close or touch me, I've fought with a fair bit of hyperventilating the past 3 days although I nearly ran when they were setting it up today and it knocked my arm, hopefully will stick it out for the remaining 12.
I was really tired after rads Mon and Tues and nearly ended up at the seaside after falling asleep on the train, I ate an apple and a banana after rads finished today and didn't fall asleep, I think the natural sugars woke me up. I'll do the same tomorrow and see if the same thing happens. A bit difficult to tell if the rads are making me tired or the constant struggle to get teenagers to bed before midnight whilst still having to get up at 6 to get them off to school again the next morning. I think the tiredness is more teenage related than rad related but will see.
Good luck to all continuing or starting rads and a big whooo to those of you who have finished.
I had a lumpectomy on 2nd May and only started radiotherapy on 21st August. I was lucky that I could wait, but it was very frustrating. I went back to work and am currently working. Only 2 more sessions to go, but I think fatigue is setting in. Otherwise things are fairly good - although I feel more anxious (I’m blaming the Tamoxifen).
A bit apprehensive that it will take some time to get back to ‘normal’.
thank you for your kind words I’ll be thinking of you also. This has been nearly a year in the making as I started chemo treatment in December which lasted to June then surgery in July and now rads which is my last part of active treatment thank god. All that will be left for me to have is another op but I can deal with that. It’s been a long long road but nearly there now.
Good of luck to everyone
Hi Tinaan and welcome. I know how frustrating it is, the waiting game and it’s an unfortunate part of the process. I’m ‘experienced’ in that I went all through this 11 years ago. But this time it seems there are more and more people to treat and longer to wait. That’s been my experience all the way through with waits for scans, wait for surgery etc. I had lumpectomies on both breasts on 21 June but unfortunately had to go back for a mastectomy on 24 July, so only a day after your surgery. It is the remaining left side which is now being treated with radiotherapy, but the mastectomy delayed it all because of waiting to heal on the right.
So I am literally sitting on the bus now on my way in to my 3rd session. I started on Wednesday, which was very nearly 12 weeks after the lumpectomy and exactly 7 after my mastectomy. And even then I harassed them a bit to get it brought forward. I don’t like pestering as I’m sure there are always more needy cases than mine, but I’ve learnt that it does pay as they did manage to bring mine forward by a week. The guidelines seem to be between 6 and 12 weeks after your lumpectomy so hopefully you’ll hear soon. Meanwhile just enjoy this lovely weather while you still can...I’m spending half of every day travelling and being treated! I think it’s a cruel joke that while I’m flat on my back with my arms held up behind me and the machine whirring and clicking, they have a picture on the ceiling of blue skies and palm trees! Just remember this is hopefully the final stage. I keep checking online for holidays in November with real sun and palm trees!
Hi all , I’m a newbie had my lumpectomy on the 23rd of July . Saw my oncology consultant on weds and am now waiting for a measuring appointment , can I just ask how long you have waited for this next appointment . I desperately want to get my radiotherapy started ...thanks
Glad that treatments are getting underway and have finished for some
Leonie68 - My sentiments regarding guidelines exactly. Why make them if they're not relevant. My chemo was started just after the guidelines recommended, my Onc said it did not matter - then went on about how I was at high risk of recurrence so we needed to start asap. Unless they have been in the same position they cannot understand just how anxiety provoking it is when the days go by and you still haven't started. I didn't think I'd be in any rush to get toxic drugs pumped through me either but I was. As the time for the radio gets nearer it does concern me regarding the risks especially when the nurse said you will get lung damage but don't worry it'll only be a tiny bit so shouldn't cause you any problems. Anyway as with chemo, I'm willingly going ahead and hoping the damn thing works.
MarFromEssex - How interesting that you didn't use any creams despite your skin being sensitive and only having negligible side effects, I hope this continues for you. Glad you mentioned the bra, I intend to wear one to and from my treatments - don't want anyone thinking I have some strange growths protruding from my abdomen (gravity has not been too kind!).
SueLSE - So glad you have started your radio as you say it's the last stage, I'm looking forward to being able to move on too. You did make me smile about startling people on the bus if you went bra less, It concerns me a bit too; mind you I think I've done enough startling people already - my head felt itchy when I was in the supermarket and before I knew it I whipped my wig off to cool down (I'd totally forgot where I was), makes me laugh now remembering the look of shock on the poor mans face when I did it.
Jenniewren - I find the cream business a bit confusing as different hospitals seem to recommend different things, I've got some Aveeno but it's not on the recommended list at my hospital (Oilatum cream, E45 cream and Diprobase). Did you put your cream on as soon as your session had finished or did you wait until you got home? It'll take me 1.5 to 2 hrs to get home. I hope your fatigue is improving now.
MissWhite89 - We're nearly there now, well starting radio that is and we'll both be finishing the same day - lets hope it goes well for both of us, will be thinking of you.
I agree the anomalies in treatment times for radiotherapy is concerning. Whilst I am dreading it I just want it to be done and over......and effective! After chasing it via my breast nurses for weeks I got consultant meeting 4th Sept. (3 weeks after onc. And 8 weeks after op) Oncologist already told me not to worry about timescale as guidelines were 12 weeks after last surgery which was 11th July for me. Radiotherapy consultant was lovely and reasuring and said I was low risk so studies show so long as within 6 months there was no difference. Reassuring I was low risk, not reassuring they were happy for me to wait 6 months. So I badgered her, my oncologist and breast nurses and got planning appointment next week but treatment only starting 2nd october.......1 day before the 12 week guideline!
If it's a guideline it's for good reason and should be adhered to by all health trusts, not be a postcode lottery or down to how pushy you get about it.
Had to laugh though......I ended up badgering them for something I would have given anything to get out of......really went against the grain but if I am having it it had flipping well better work
I have just finished (on Tuesday) my 15 sessions bilateral radiotherapy for DCIS in both breasts. I had to hold my breath for both sides. I assume it was to avoid lungs/heart as much as possible. I only had to hold my breath for 10 seconds at a time. I am quite fit so could have held it longer but they never asked me to.
I was absolutely dreading it but it has been ok. The only issues I have had is to lay with my arms above my head for half and hour and then try to relax😣.
My skin has been fine other than some slight rash where I have previously been sunburned. I wear a cotton bra very loosely with 2 extenders to avoid my skin rubbing and also cotton loose T-shirts. This has stopped any friction plus I take my bra off at home.
i have not used deodorant nor any creams and though I am a redhead with freckly sensitive skin this has worked very well for me.
The only issues I have had is the machine breaking down in the middle of treatment a couple of time meaning that I have been laid out as on a rack for an hour ☹️☹️☹️
I have avoided trying to rub all the ballpoint marks they kept putting all over my boobs which made them look quite interesting 😀 just washed with tepid water and no soap.
The marks wear off eventually so dont don’t worry about getting them off as it will aggrevate your skin.
My husband took me every day as we are retired so I was lucky and the hospital allowed free parking during treatment. I hope this helps xx
I finally started my 15 sessions yesterday. I left home at 9.30am and didn’t get back until 1.30pm, so it certainly takes up a large chunk of the day. I will be leaving at 1.30pm today for a 3pm appointment, yesterday there was a 30 mins delay. After an initial mammogram in mid April, followed eventually by double lumpectomies late June, and then on again for a single mastectomy in late July, I finally feel I’ve reached the final stage and can hopefully move on - it will be 6 months by the time I’ve finished.
As for going bra less, it’s not really an option for me, as I’m wearing a prosthesis on the non radiotherapy side and need the specialist bra I’ve got to hold it! And as I’m a 38DD, I wouldn’t want to startle anyone on the bus by not wearing it!
Hi, just to say in my experience having the actual radiotherapy was better than I expected.Yes the fatigue is a challenge both during and after,but the daily trips for the treatment, travelling and your head full of all what is going on is a large part of it. Re the skin treatment during and after,it's really important to be vigilant in keeping on top of the moisturising as it affects the skin like sunburn.
The radiotherapist and the specialist breast cancer nurses were great in recommending the best creams. I found the soft bralets were a good option to wearing no bra as they are longer than a normal bra so don't sit tight underneath,you can get front or back fastening ones so easy to put on.
Im scheduled for 15 rounds so should finish the 4 October. Yes I can agree with you there I’m really looking forward to finishing treatment at the moment it’s felt a bit like I’ve bin in limbo as my surgery was 17 July and it’s been an awful long time since then. I’m going to be having another surgery after this but I’m hoping that I should be able to move on after rads finishes. Good luck for Monday hun will be thinking of you 😊
You'll be starting the same day as me then, how many are you having?
Can't say I'm looking forward to the 3 hr round trip for travelling but am looking forward to finishing my treatment - well apart from the hormones and bisphosphonates that is.
You'll be starting the same day as me then, how many are you having?
Can't say I'm looking forward to the 3 hr round trip for travelling but am looking forward to finishing my treatment - well apart from the hormones and bisphosphonates that is.
My radiotherapy is starting on Monday, it’s good to hear everyone who’s getting through and your experiences of it. I feel like I know what to expect now.
Hope everyone is doing okay
Thanks for the advice, I had heard that it was the couple of weeks after treatment where the worst effects are.
It makes it a bit confusing when different centres advocate the use of different creams - I think a bit of research is needed here so that a more standardised list of products to choose from can be given to patients no matter where we are treated.
I have icky skin anyway so will have to wait and see how it reacts, fingers crossed it won't be too bad. I haven't got big boobs but gravity is working on what I've got so the skin folds will probably be an issue. I'm wondering whether to get an 100% cotton t shirt or something that's 100% cotton and cut it up so I can wedge it under the breast to prevent friction. I hate going bra less so that will be a challenge but I've got just shy of a week to think of something suitable and have it ready.
I'm pleased you are on the other side of the radio now and I wish you a healthy future.
I also had 15 sessions with 2 reviews, one with a nurse and one with an oncologist.
I don't want to alarm you but the worst bit for me regarding skin care was when the treatment was actually over. I used E45 cream 3 times a day during the treatment and all was fine until about my 12th session when the skin around the fold of my breast began to redden. I was recommended Hydrocortisone 1% cream when it became sore, but the radiographer warned it would probably get worse and said I could get special cream from the GP if the skin broke. In the days after my last session the skin blistered and became moist. I have fairly large breasts and apparently things are made worse by the friction. It did heal up OK but for a few days it was difficult to find a comfortable bra which did not rub the skin. I tried putting cotton wool over the area, but it stuck to the skin. So I resorted to wedging a folded up piece of kitchen towel under my breast, which seemed to work and soaked up the moisture.
Apart from that the radiotherapy was fine. I never had the fatigue I had been warned about. I made a point of keeping myself active.
Best of luck with your treatment.
Had my planning session today and am finally going to start on the 16th for 15 sessions, they're all around 12 noon which will be beneficial for the hour and 40 mins travelling either way, I'll have to make sure I don't fall asleep on the way back otherwise I'll end up at the seaside for the rest of the day.
I asked about creams and was told something without fragrance i.e E45, Aveeno etc, I asked how many times I should apply it and was told whenever I remembered, good job for this forum as I know how important good boob skin care is throughout the radio and after.
I have 2 reviews one 2 weeks after starting with the radiologist and one on the final day of treatment which may not necessarily be with the Oncologist and probably with the nurse. Same with the follow up appointment 6-8 weeks after completing radio. That would mean I would have seen my Oncologist twice throughout treatment is this normal?.
Anyway just relieved to have a start date. Good luck to all going through treatment and to those about to start.
Thanks all. Had my first session today and was fine. Worst but for me was being to cold and trying to keep still whilst cold and nervous . I was told any tiredness would peak around 10 days after treatment finishes x
Hugs to all who are just starting treatment (and to those coming to the end of theirs), it's great to hear that things are finally moving, I hope to be given a start date at my CT planning scan on Fri although I remember my oncologist saying that I would have the planning then go back to have an appointment with the Dr before starting, I hope there's not too many as the thought of travelling an hour and a half each way by bus and train is wearing me out before I start.
Good luck to everyone having treatment I hope it goes well
I have just had my planning session with CT scan. But just to reassure everyone, this is my second time as I was treated for my right breast 11 years ago. This time I am having radiotherapy on the left side, and it will also cover my lymph nodes, as the sentinel node was affected. I did not suffer too much last time, and am not anticipating too many side effects this time, though I know I am likely to be sore.
i think the fatigue is as much the emotional drain of all we’ve been through to get to this stage, and also the daily travelling. I plan to use the bus as long as I can, as there is hardly any parking and it’s in the centre of a big city.
jewels46, please try and relax and not think too much about it. I’ve tried to have some fun myself whilst waiting, which has included a couple of mini vacations and some day trips, whilst there was still some summer left.
I start next Wednesday, and I managed the 20 seconds breath hold quite easily in my setting up this morning.
I’ve been there before....honestly, it’s not too bad!
Thanks , sometimes I have to much time to think about it . I need to spend more time planning/ doing more fun things x
I have 4 boosts left now so finish on Thursday. I’m using Aveeno cream twice a day. I have develop some dryness under boob and in nipple but not too bad really.
Hope you find rads ok - it will soon pass 😊.
wishing you and everyone else staring all the best.
I have my 10th radiotherapy (out of 15) tomorrow.
i found holding my breath for 20 seconds really hard, so I practiced at home! It is getting easier with practice.
My friend, who has already been through bc radiotherapy was recommended to use aloe Vera 98%organic gel. I have been using it and be fine with it so far.
I have rested after each treatment as I was warned about fatigue.
Hope all goes well
No I don’t have to hold my breath and it’s my right side. I was under impression that breath holding was only for left side radiotherapy.
Hi Everyone, it’s great everyone is getting dates now, feels so much better when you know what’s happening. You can see the end of this rotten path we seem to be on.
Has anyone been asked to hold their breath at the planning appt? I had mine yesterday and I couldn’t do it apparently I had air leakage from my nose 😂 I am still a bit weak at the minute after chemo and 6 hour op plus asthmatic so I guess it’s not surprising. 20 seconds is quite a long time!
i am a bit worried though that I can’t do it although at least it’s my right side that the rads are on.
Anyone else not able to do it. Or any tips if you did as I might get another try?
Hope everyone’s coping well with the rads. And those that are starting soon.. good luck!
Mel you must be almost finished! What cream have you used if any?
Big hugs to everyone
I’m pleased to report that I now have all my appointments, and they have managed to fit me in earlier than expected. I have my planning appointment next Tuesday, and then treatments start the following Wednesday 11th, go on until 1st October, with a final blast and review on 9th October. So I will be starting 2 days before the 12 weeks that I was told it should start. I had a really kind and helpful radiotherapist ring me, as I was originally down to see the doctor to sign consent etc on Thursday next week, and when she spotted that, she arranged for the doctor to see me next Tuesday at my appointment with her, so that I didn’t have to make the journey twice in one week. And she then brought forward my planned appointment by a week when I pleaded! Common sense and joined up thinking, a rare quality!
It is a relief when you know where you are, and I know that I will be well able to join our family holiday together. Just hope the grandkids don’t wear me out!
Beat wishes to all of us going through our radiotherapy in September, let’s keep our chins up!
I hope your first session has gone/will go well, I'm in full agreement that the length of time people are waiting for their treatment to start isn't good for anybody. Finding out you have BC is anxiety provoking in itself without worrying we won't start treatment within the recommended guidelines.
Nevertheless we are strong ladies and will get through it. Good luck to all who are starting their treatment and to the rest of us who are still waiting - we will get there eventually.
My planning appointment was beginning of August and although I pleaded with them to start the treatment sooner, I don't have my first session until the end of next week. I don't think the amount of waiting is good for anyone. I'll be 13 weeks post op by the time I start my first full week of treatment, so I keep thinking whether it'll actually going to have any benefit.
I'm not near a hospital so it's about an hour and a half travelling each way. Which I've got to do as a combination of driving part of the way, then getting a bus as like the hospital you are at there is virtually no parking on site. The cost of the bus is quite expensive which isn't ideal as I've not been back to work since my op. Hopefully, they can get you in sooner, so you can get it finished with before your big family holiday. Take care 😊
Hi everyone, I’m also due for radiotherapy in September. I have bilateral breast cancer, and the right side was a recurrence after 11 years, so I had radiotherapy back then, 15 sessions and can honestly say I didn’t affect me too much. I can’t have radiotherapy again that side, and I initially opted for a double lumpectomy, as it was thought the recurrence was very small. But it turned out to be an invasive lobular cancer which had spread so I returned nearly 5 weeks later for a mastectomy.
I saw the oncologist on Monday and am now waiting for an appointment to get set up and then start, probably 15 sessions. They will go up into the armpit to cover the lymph nodes. What is concerning me is that I have been told several times that radiotherapy must start between 6 weeks and 12 weeks after surgery. The lumpectomy, with sentinel node involvement, was performed on my left side on 21 June. Oncology are telling me they are so busy and short staffed that there is no appointment for a month. They will try and fit me in with a cancellation, but I’m already 9 weeks down the line, the delay being my further surgery. And we have a big family holiday at the end of October which I’m determined not to miss. I think I’m going to ring and start hassling, though I am reluctant, as there are plenty of people worse off than me.
As for travelling, our oncology department is in the centre of a city with virtually no parking. I’m old enough to have my bus pass, so I intend to use that, and then 10 minutes walk from bus station. It’s about 40 minutes on the bus from where I live. Hope I can travel after 9am!
Has anyone else been told that they will have to wait because everything is fully booked?
Its going really fast! Now in single figures. It’s just part of my daily routine now and I’m not finding it too bad.
Hope everything goes well for you.
Thats great you are already on no. 10, does it feel like it’s going fast? I started chemo in Feb but it seemed to go quickly, ie the time came around for the next dose very quickly. Most probably because I didn’t want it to!
Like everyone just want this bit over ASAP.
I hope the rest of your rads go well and are over quickly.
i have had my planning meeting today and due to start in 5th sept . All went ok other than being so cold in the scan room . Hopefully hear from others going through this . Xx
i can totally relate to your feelings regarding the tattoos. It’s just another reminder of what we are going through and the lack of control over our bodies. Your right about the disease being a dictator- bloody thing. That’s part of the reason I choose to drive to radio when I can - feel like it gives me some control back in a strange sort of way. Also I didn’t need chemo so obviously not suffering the effects of that like you.
Your humour didn’t offend me at all! Made me smile and I would say I have a similar humour! I was laughing g how my tumour got to go to America for oncotype before me after all it’s put me through! 🤣🤣. Humour certainly helps with the lows.
Wishing you all the best. Hugs Mel xx
It's great to hear that people are getting their planning appointments at last and others getting their start dates, I think we all want to get cracking and get it over with so we can get back to some sort of semblance of 'normal' life, whatever that may be.
Thanks to everyone for your reassuring words regarding tattoo's but can I just say It's not the size or the thought of any pain which puts me off tattoo's, it's the sheer anger I have that this darned disease is dictating I have to have something (no matter how tiny) which I have never wanted. I dread the thought of tattoos like some dread the thought of losing their hair - I suppose we all have something we will do our best to avoid. Anyway, that's it rant over I will get over it, I usually do, life's too short to worry about little things - still annoys me though
Mel - A photo for ID purposes, I take it it was of your face and not your boob. Don't know what to wear on my head now, my wig or my usual fisherman's hat or just go bald, I wear thick rimmed glasses to hide the fact that I have no eyebrows, none of the looks actually look like me, I hope I haven't offended you, I have a weird sense of humour but it gets me through the lows in life. Well done on ticking number 10 off, you'll soon be ringing that bell, 45 mins is a long drive, you've done really well driving yourself as much as you can and its nice that hubby is helping out when its a bit much. Good luck with the rest of your treatment.
Denzel - I hope your wound is fully healed and you can finally get on with the radio and as you say get life back to 'normal' it's a long draining process but you've firmly got the finishing post in your sights now, you'll be ringing that bell before you know it.
Leonie - Your planning appt is only 2 days before mine, we'll be able to swap notes. Mine will be on my right side so I won't be needing to hold my breath thank goodness.
Saz2345 - Good luck for Friday, I hope you get your treatment plan so you can finally get on with it
Becsann - I would have an hour's drive at least but generally it would be 1.5 hrs if appointments clash with rush hours. I will probably be going by bus and train, which is about 1.5 hrs journey each way. I know that is a lot but at least I wouldn't be having to concentrate on the road. I find I still lose concentration a bit too easy and am also still finding I have a bit of chemo brain so think the safest for me is the train but I'll see. Good luck with your planning session next week.
Susanmanchester - It's great that you have had no side effects that must be a relief, good luck with the rest of your treatment.
Enjoy the rest of the week ladies - we've got this
Ive just dome number 10 today and have about a 45 minute drive to the hospital. I have taken myself but there have been days where I have felt very tired (fatigue can be a side effect) so hubby has driven me. I think you will have to see how you are on the day. Wishing you well - sounds like you’ve had a long journey already.
Good luck to everyone else starting in September.
I have my planning appt next Thursday and apparently will be have treatment from 10th to 30th Sept.
How far is everyone’s hospital? Mine is about an hour in traffic and just wondering if I can drive myself. Already rather tired after chemo and op 5 weeks ago so wondering if it’s doable.
Good luck to everyone with treatment xx
Ive got my appointment this Friday. It’s been 7 weeks since my op, I am hoping they will be telling me I’ll be having my radiotherapy shortly.
Good luck everyone with treatment x
5th radiotherapy tomorrow and no side effects at all .... it is not in the least bit painful you just have to stay still for 15 minutes . Deep breaths and close your eyes ... that's it
I too have radiologist meeting 4th September (or so My breast nurse says ...still waiting for phone call to confirm). I am 5 weeks post last op and hoping there isn't much more delay, as as much as I am dreading it I just need it to be over.
It's my left side being done so will have to learn the breathing technique to try and protect heart and lungs as much as possible. Read some of possible side effects.....not Good reading.
Good luck to us all